Hey,
I am getting a bit tired of this topic so Ill divide these quotes into three general categories, Separating family, Slavery and Submissive women...

Separating family:
It is my interpretation that this is very metaphoric. Jesus is saying that the younger generation should not follow their parents beliefs. My "sword" he means his teachings/knowledge that he is passing on to the "youth" at the time. I am sure that we can all relate this to modern day examples of social change such as Racism etc. The youth had to speak out against their parents beliefs. As I said in my first post, Jesus was a rebel and questioned authority. This is one thing that attracts me too his teachings.

Slavery:
I personally agree with Jesus here. I think that "slavery" is necessary in our society. Things wouldn't function with out "Slaves". Only today we call them "the labor force".

I know what you're thinking.... let me explain. In the times of slavery a slave owner had to pay to house and feed his slaves. Today we have "minimum wage". In most countries, this wage does not allow for anymore then the rent and very basic food. In the countries where "minimum wage" allows for a little expendable income, they just use "slaves" from other poorer countries to do their labor. So in my opinion slavery will always be around and is actually necessary to any society. I interpret Jesus talking about "slaves" or "servants" to be lessons on employer/employee relations.

Submissive women:
I also agree with him here. I think that a married woman does have a responsibility to submit to her husband sexually. In general, men have a MUCH higher sex dive then women. Therefore this often causes stress in the relationship and leads to fornication, divorce etc.

 

Hey,
I am getting a bit tired of this topic so Ill divide these quotes into three general categories, Separating family, Slavery and Submissive women...

Separating family:
It is my interpretation that this is very metaphoric. Jesus is saying that the younger generation should not follow their parents beliefs. My "sword" he means his teachings/knowledge that he is passing on to the "youth" at the time. I am sure that we can all relate this to modern day examples of social change such as Racism etc. The youth had to speak out against their parents beliefs. As I said in my first post, Jesus was a rebel and questioned authority. This is one thing that attracts me too his teachings.

Slavery:
I personally agree with Jesus here. I think that "slavery" is necessary in our society. Things wouldn't function with out "Slaves". Only today we call them "the labor force".

I know what you're thinking.... let me explain. In the times of slavery a slave owner had to pay to house and feed his slaves. Today we have "minimum wage". In most countries, this wage does not allow for anymore then the rent and very basic food. In the countries where "minimum wage" allows for a little expendable income, they just use "slaves" from other poorer countries to do their labor. So in my opinion slavery will always be around and is actually necessary to any society. I interpret Jesus talking about "slaves" or "servants" to be lessons on employer/employee relations.

Submissive women:
I also agree with him here. I think that a married woman does have a responsibility to submit to her husband sexually. In general, men have a MUCH higher sex dive then women. Therefore this often causes stress in the relationship and leads to fornication, divorce etc.

 

Thanks for the discussion! I had never discussed my religious beliefs so openly before. I appreciate the scrutiny. It helped me organize my thoughts on the topic and think about what I truly believe. As it turns out... aliens! lol

Thanks to you too Dave.

Paz e amor, irmaos.

 

You say you are getting tired of this, my guess is you are getting tired of finding excuses for following the bible, not one of the above is acceptable.

The younger generation should ignore the teachings of the elder one. In one paragraph you have just told the kids of the world to do as they like and god will okay it.

Then you make a poor attempt to cover the use of slaves.

Finally you say a women as to submit to her husband, it is her position just to spread her legs because if she don't he will seek sex out of the marriage. Have you never heard of universal suffrage, women are our equals.

If that is the teachings of the bible I will stick to the principals my mother taught me.

 

MEU DEUS, RICHIEF!! Que chato! Its over. These are my beliefs. You are free to yours. I understand that mine are different. That is ok with me.

as for the slaves I believe this to be true. Minimum wage in my country is about $200/month. This is nothing and the people work like 12/day 6 or 7 days per week. This is pretty close to slavery.

As for the submissive women thing. I didn t say open her legs any time the husband wants or else he will look elsewhere. But I think that in a marriage due to the difference in sex drive, a women has to be aware of her man's needs and should try to accommodate him sometimes, even if she doesn't feel particularly horny. I think that this makes the marriage more harmonious.

These are only my opinions. I am sure that others will disagree with them too. But it is how I see the world and religion. Let's just agree to disagree on this one, ok?

Paz meu irmao,

 

MEU DEUS, RICHIEF!! Que chato! Its over. These are my beliefs. You are free to yours. I understand that mine are different. That is ok with me.

as for the slaves I believe this to be true. Minimum wage in my country is about $200/month. This is nothing and the people work like 12hrs/day 6 or 7 days per week. This is pretty close to slavery.

As for the submissive women thing. I didn t say open her legs any time the husband wants or else he will look elsewhere. But I think that in a marriage due to the difference in sex drive, a women has to be aware of her man's needs and should try to accommodate him sometimes, even if she doesn't feel particularly horny. I think that this makes the marriage more harmonious.

These are only my opinions. I am sure that others will disagree with them too. But it is how I see the world and religion. Let's just agree to disagree on this one, ok?

Paz meu irmao,

 

P.S. I had these opinions about slavery and submissiveness of married women before I considered myself Christian. As I said, I was attracted to Christ's teachings as they reflected my own personal opinions about life and the world.

 

Hugs Brazi

 

Abraco Catrina!
Me desculpe... paz, minha irmã...:rose:

 

What you don't seem to be understanding is that the above points are one of many bad points i your holy book.
Your belief that women should submit to their husbands demands is quite outrageous.

Why should she submit? Because your holy book says so, what if she is not a christian, does she still have to follow the rules you lay down.

I tire of telling you that I have no religious beliefs, atheism is not a belief system, it is the denial of the existence of any deity.

 

PORRA, RICH!! Whatever man. Ive told you several times that I dont take it literally.

I understand that people interpret them as bad points. But I am just telling you how I personally interpret them when I read it while I am smoking weed. I just use it to reflect on my own life. I relax, reflect and read. Like Ive told you before, Most people in my real life dont even know that I consider myself a christian. It is a very personal and private thing for me.

But... no, I dont think that it means that a man can abuse his wife either. I think its just advice to women to keep their men satisfied.If their husbands reach for them in the night, they should regularly submit. Sometimes even if they aren't particularly horny. And I think that this is a part of nature. Since men typically have a higher sex drive than women. This advice makes sense to me. It makes for a more harmonious and loving marriage. What's the problem? What you are imagining is the extreme. You take the whole thing too seriously.

Richard, Ive told you that I believe that Jesus was an alien! WTF! I am not going to sit here and defend some catholic interpretation of the bible that you have in your head. I interpret it my own way. And that is working for me. And I think that this is how it is supposed to be read. Thats all.

 

BTW... Below is the full passage of the quote which Dave posted and Richie is so concerned over. It is about women "submitting" to men. This is what was originally posted (.....Likewise, wives submit yourselves to your own husbands......)

I wanted to post the full passage because it just happens to be a particularly beautiful passage. Especially for a married person. As you can see by reading the whole passage its nothing more than kind loving advice to husbands and wives. Its a shame that it has been taken out of context in such a way....

You see, this is how the teachings of Jesus were meant to be used.With NON-SKEPTICAL MIND and without all the bullshit of churches and organized religion. It is ment to be used as reflection of oneself and in private. I find a little weed gets me in the bible zone...

Anyway, I have refrained from using Bible passages throughout this thread because I dont think it is meant to be taken literally. However I hope you read the full passage below.

Paz, irmaos

-Peter 3:1-18

1 Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2 when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3 Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. 4 Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight. 5 For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, 6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.

7 Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

8 Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble. 9 Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult. On the contrary, repay evil with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.
10 For, whoever would love life
and see good days
must keep their tongue from evil
and their lips from deceitful speech.
11 They must turn from evil and do good;
they must seek peace and pursue it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous
and his ears are attentive to their prayer,
but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”[a]

13 Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? 14 But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. “Do not fear their threats; do not be frightened.”[c] 15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 17 For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

-Peter 3:1-18

 

BTW... Just by using the above random Bible passage, you can clearly see Christ's "Spirit" (Do good to your brother, and forgive.) without getting into the details... This "Spirit" or personality/behavior of Christ is present through out almost the entire New Testament. That is why it is not important if it is 100% true. It is Christ's spirit that we are looking for when we read it. Not a history lesson.

 

Oh god, I didn't want to, I really dont, but fuck it, I'm throwing myself into this debate.

Dude, one of your arguments is that atheists believe there is no god. This is not entirely true.

There are such things as "hard" atheists and "soft" atheists. I'm an agnostic atheist myself, a soft one. Agnosticism doesnt mean you dont know what you believe in, it means that you believe it is IMPOSSIBLE to find out, scientifically or otherwise, the existence of God. I believe it cannot be done, and so far, no one has.

A soft atheist means that you dont see any evidence for God, therefore you dont know if God exists, and consider the probability that he may not exist. A "hard" atheist is the one you seem to think we all are, that we know for certainly, 100 percent that there is no God.

There is also this stuff about spirituality. Anecdotal stories dont help here. Now, I'm going to do this, cause seriously, fuck research this late at night, but I'm sure Orion and Dave can link you DOZENS of articles and scientific papers that explain a lot of the phenomenon you call spirituality. haunted houses, ghosts, premonitions, all of it has been debunked from time to time. We live in a big universe, a big universe means large numbers. Just because the UNLIKELY occurs doesnt mean its SPIRITUAL or PURPOSEFUL. You insist the spiritual world exists and that the vast majority of the world feels it, but you cant back that up.


Again, some of us arent "hard" atheists, but nonetheless, "hard" atheists use the same arguments as "soft" atheists, so in a sense, they're still in the right. Personally, I allow for the slight possibility that there may be some sort of being that started all this. But it certainly isnt the Christian God, or the Islamic God, or any of them, because their religious texts have so many holes in them it's not even funny. I would imagine if God exists, he's a being that created our world and then went into hiding. The way it is now, he doent WANT us to know he exists.

As for science, you need to realize that no one here puts science at such a god-like level. No, science doesnt know everything. Yes, science has been wrong before. But the thing about science is that its the only thing that has advanced our species to the level it's at now. Its reliable, its something we all can do. Science makes no claims about God or the supernatural, it cant, because science is made only to detail the physical world, because that's the only measurable thing around us.

So, we dont believe in God just because we dont want to, but because you've given us no logical reason to, not your version of God anyway. The burden of proof isnt on us to disprove him, but for you to prove he exists. I dont go to you and tell you the Flying Sphagetti Monster exists and expect you to disprove him, its on me.

Seriously, your lack of knowledge in science is laughable. Stating Evolution is only a theory, I think that line made some of us want to punch you. Germ theory is a theory, the theory of relativity, the one that explains gravity, is a theory, atomic theory is a theory. Theories arent guesses, they're complicated explanations that can change when new evidence is introduce, they're the best possible explanations.

By the gods, we've DOCUMENTED evolution, its the backbone of biology, it's just...wow...that you put more faith in the supernatural, which has done NOTHING for us, while giving science the boot just gives me a headache.

 

Not only do I think your interpretations are are completely dishonest to what the book says, you have molded them to something they are not. But even still, your views on the topics are too, also immoral.


Besides you brushed aside some of the chapters without a mentions for example

"And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating."
..........Luke 12:47


Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."
..........Timothy 2:11

 

I particularly like this quote he made showing his reverence for women.

What is the problem? If you consider yourself a theist/christian/man of god then I am glad to be an atheist.
I would like to see what the ladies think of the above quote.

 

Again another quote taken WAY out of context. This advice is about being prepared for your responsibilities. It in no way advocates slavery or beating of people. A slave is interpreted as an employee, a master is in modern days called a boss, and these days we use different forms of punishment then they did when Jesus was alive. So beatings are logical interpreted as getting fired or something.

It in no way advocates anything more than having good work ethics. Which lead to more harmonious relations. You just have to understand that Jesus' world and culture was very different then ours. So logically his examples would be different. But they can still be applied today. During my self-reflection, I would think of times in my work when I had been irresponsible or disorganized or something. That reflection stays with me when I am at work the next day. It improves me as a person.

-Luke 12: 35- 49

You Must Be Ready

35 "Stay dressed for action[f] and keep your lamps burning, 36and be like men who are waiting for their master to come home from the wedding feast, so that they may open the door to him at once when he comes and knocks. 37 Blessed are those servants[g] whom the master finds awake when he comes. Truly, I say to you, he will dress himself for service and have them recline at table, and he will come and serve them. 38If he comes in the second watch, or in the third, and finds them awake, blessed are those servants! 39 But know this, that if the master of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he[h] would not have left his house to be broken into. 40You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."
41Peter said, "Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?" 42And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 45But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful. 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

 

LOL whatever. I really dont even give a fuck at this point. LOL!!! Its what I believe. Dont like it?? Go fuck yourselves. LOL

 

I am sorry took the time to write that big long post. I couldn't be fucked to read it. yes you are an atheist. Good for you. I am sure there is a lot of facts to back your views.

 

Richie, why do you care so much what I label myself religiously? Does it really matter to you that I believe in God and try to follow the path of Christ?

I personally don't care what the women here think about my views. It in no way effects my life physically or spiritually. In real life I look for a woman that I am compatible with sexually and I would respect her. Not that it is any of your business.

If you had read the the full passage that I posted, you would see that Jesus gives advice to the Husbands too. He tells the to respect the women as the fairer sex and to love them and not to hold grudges against their women etc. He also tells them that the true beauty comes from the inside. And that it is not important all the jewelry and makeup etc. This passage is actually very respectful to women and teaching good harmonious advice to both husband and wife. I will say it again, it is a particularly beautiful passage and it is a shame that you are falsely applying this context to it.